GNX on eBay 4-14-09

ChuckG · Post by **ChuckG** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:52 pm

Guess tax season claims another casualty...

Looks nice, but heading for big bucks. How is it they made 4x as many GNXs and the Coupes lag so far behind in prices??

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... &viewitem=

Sandy · Post by **Sandy** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:15 pm

They got loads more press in mags and much more exposure by the media and therefore more people knew about it.

tfs2121 · Post by **tfs2121** » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:53 pm

and they were FAST and i mean FAST

ProTouringASC · Post by **ProTouringASC** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:06 am

They were also quite sought after when new, something we can't really say was the case for our cars.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

shelbyscarab · Post by **shelbyscarab** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:35 pm

I can't believe these are bringing those prices.......

ChuckG · Post by **ChuckG** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:04 pm

Maybe if Ford hadn't so favored the Mustang?? Maybe if they'd admitted the engine modifications? I remember people thinking my car was just a stripe kit, but never explaining why it was so much faster than Mustangs or Camaros.

I think ASC learned a lot in marketing by the time the GNX came along. They always seemed to be understaffed and running around with their hair on fire every time I was over there on Stark Road.

I was at BOC (Buick-Olds-Cadillac) when they built those. Rumor was that this was a Buick-engineered vehicle that the bean counters wouldn't allow for regular production, so ASC was handed the particulars and modified the car off-site.

There were also rumors that the GNX motor was intended for the Corvette, but Dave McLellan, chief Corvette engineer in those days, refused to allow a non-Chevrolet engine in the Corvette.

Post by **negusm** » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:15 pm

ChuckG wrote: There were also rumors that the GNX motor was intended for the Corvette, but Dave McLellan, chief Corvette engineer in those days, refused to allow a non-Chevrolet engine in the Corvette.

Now you know why the Big3 are in all in the crapper (yes, Ford too).

Can you imagine an organization all competing internally AGAINST one another? An engineering team for EACH car brand instead of a SINGLE UNIFIED team making engineering designs for the good of the company? No, instead lets fight over whos engine design is better. Heaven forbid a design from one group is placed in a car headed up by another group! Let's go off and build yet another engine and spend millions working out the kinks!

Meanwhile, the competition laughs, and uses whatever makes sense wherever it is needed.

If GM is lucky they will be left with a SINGLE car line by the end of the year by which to possibly branch out into one or two more lines in the future. New car lines should utilize the work done by the entire company, not from just the one division responsible for getting a particular car to market.

But it won't happen.

-Mike

ProTouringASC · Post by **ProTouringASC** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:44 pm

negusm wrote:
ChuckG wrote: There were also rumors that the GNX motor was intended for the Corvette, but Dave McLellan, chief Corvette engineer in those days, refused to allow a non-Chevrolet engine in the Corvette.
Now you know why the Big3 are in all in the crapper (yes, Ford too).

Can you imagine an organization all competing internally AGAINST one another? An engineering team for EACH car brand instead of a SINGLE UNIFIED team making engineering designs for the good of the company? No, instead lets fight over whos engine design is better. Heaven forbid a design from one group is placed in a car headed up by another group! Let's go off and build yet another engine and spend millions working out the kinks!

Meanwhile, the competition laughs, and uses whatever makes sense wherever it is needed.

If GM is lucky they will be left with a SINGLE car line by the end of the year by which to possibly branch out into one or two more lines in the future. New car lines should utilize the work done by the entire company, not from just the one division responsible for getting a particular car to market.

But it won't happen.

-Mike

I have to disagree. GM's downhill slide started when they started consolidating. In the 60's and 70's, when GM divisions were allowed to compete against each other, all the divisions set unbelievable sales records.

As for the GNX engine going into a Corvette, McLellan and the Corvette team recognized that the Corvette would have difficulty in the market if it were not a V8 powered vehicle. Several times in the 70's and 80's Chevrolet experimented with a Turbo V-6 Corvette, but the push back from potential buyers and current Corvette owners caused them to step away from the idea. Further, a turbo V6 could be based on the Chevrolet 4.3 engine as in the later GMC Syclone and Typhoon, both built by the Buick Turbo Group.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

Post by **negusm** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:31 pm

ProTouringASC wrote: I have to disagree. GM's downhill slide started when they started consolidating. In the 60's and 70's, when GM divisions were allowed to compete against each other, all the divisions set unbelievable sales records.

GM is currently stuck in that era's mentality and that is why the foreign car makers have wiped the floor with them. As far as consolidation goes, they may have consolidated a few lines but that is not the reason for their decline. Its their inability to recognize the need for internal change.

As for the GNX engine going into a Corvette, McLellan and the Corvette team recognized that the Corvette would have difficulty in the market if it were not a V8 powered vehicle. Several times in the 70's and 80's Chevrolet experimented with a Turbo V-6 Corvette, but the push back from potential buyers and current Corvette owners caused them to step away from the idea. Further, a turbo V6 could be based on the Chevrolet 4.3 engine as in the later GMC Syclone and Typhoon, both built by the Buick Turbo Group.

You're missing the entire point...completely. It is not about the engine, or what it could do or not do for the Corvette, it is about the attitude: "NO Buick/Olds/Pontiac engine will ever go in a Corvette". That pig-headed and short sighted attitude has failure written all over it in today's automotive arena.

-Mike

shelbyscarab · Post by **shelbyscarab** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:34 pm

negusm wrote:
Now you know why the Big3 are in all in the crapper (yes, Ford too).

Can you imagine an organization all competing internally AGAINST one another? An engineering team for EACH car brand instead of a SINGLE UNIFIED team making engineering designs for the good of the company? No, instead lets fight over whos engine design is better. Heaven forbid a design from one group is placed in a car headed up by another group! Let's go off and build yet another engine and spend millions working out the kinks!

Meanwhile, the competition laughs, and uses whatever makes sense wherever it is needed.

If GM is lucky they will be left with a SINGLE car line by the end of the year by which to possibly branch out into one or two more lines in the future. New car lines should utilize the work done by the entire company, not from just the one division responsible for getting a particular car to market.

But it won't happen.

-Mike

A few points. Yes, Ford is hurting too, but I wouldn't lump them in with Gm and chrysler. They reacted quicker to the economy and made cuts and other moves that needed to be done and have avoided the dire circumstances the other two find themselves in.

On GM, oh where to start... With all of GM's divisions, there once was a time (I'll say the 30's - till about 1970) that Pontiacs, Buicks, Olds, Chevy lineups were completely different. not now. From the 70's to now, each model has a close relative with different badgeing. dumb. The 80's were the worst. Remember the Citation, J-2000, Skylark? (plus they were junk to begin with). and the biggest of all clones, and of an entire line - GMC. I'm obviously not a GM fan or historian. GMC might have been a great unique division way back, but now, its a clone of chevy trucks and suv's. almost identical. with different badges. It costs alot of money to have a different brand when all your doing is cloning. Maybe GMC stays and chevy trucks and suvs go away. one or the other. pick one.

(I know Ford and Mercury do it some - but a lot less than GM)

I only commented on gm's product line, which is only maybe 1/3 of the problem. The other problems such as some of their ridiculous costs they endure, I won't get into because it starts to get into politics that is taboo on this board. But they better do something about them or else......

Post by **negusm** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:32 pm

shelbyscarab wrote: A few points. Yes, Ford is hurting too, but I wouldn't lump them in with Gm and chrysler. They reacted quicker to the economy and made cuts and other moves that needed to be done and have avoided the dire circumstances the other two find themselves in.

Oh no. The one LUCKY thing Ford did was basically mortgage the company to the HILT before this big downturn. They got lucky to secure loans before they dried up so they had more money to BURN before they hit the wall (bankruptcy). Their loans will need to be paid back...with interest...and this is BAD. GM/Chrysler may get money that they have to pay no interest on....or get money they don't have to pay back at all! Ford will have to pay MORE to the UAW since GM will force a better deal than Ford through bankruptcy. Ford will have to pay MORE to dealerships since GM will be able to axe oppressive dealership contracts that Ford cannot. Ford has much less leveraging power to push for concessions than GM or Chrysler do in Bankruptcy.

When the smoke clears, who will be in better shape? Arguably NOT Ford.

Some are predicting that by end of Summer, Ford will be knocking on Uncle Sam's door, asking for some bailout money. By then, GM/Chrysler may be deep into restructuring and ready to come out of bankruptcy.

Make no mistake, I commend Ford on their ability to stay solvent in these tough times. Somehow they made the right decisions early. HOWEVER, with them refusing money from the government, they are quite possibly giving up a very real advantage. If GM utilizes the government's help effectively, Ford could be put at a very big disadvantage.

-Mike

ProTouringASC · Post by **ProTouringASC** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:51 pm

negusm wrote:GM is currently stuck in that era's mentality and that is why the foreign car makers have wiped the floor with them. As far as consolidation goes, they may have consolidated a few lines but that is not the reason for their decline. Its their inability to recognize the need for internal change.

I'm not so sure I agree that the foreign makers have "wiped the floor with them." GM, in all reality, is still the number one auto maker. Yes, Toyota claims the title, but they sell cars in Japan where a GM product is taxed to the point that a 30K car here is something like 100K there!

negusm wrote:You're missing the entire point...completely. It is not about the engine, or what it could do or not do for the Corvette, it is about the attitude: "NO Buick/Olds/Pontiac engine will ever go in a Corvette". That pig-headed and short sighted attitude has failure written all over it in today's automotive arena.

Not if your customer's are the one's who would get upset about it. Remember it was GM who was sued for mixing engines among their divisions, and the courts ruled AGAINST Oldsmobile division!

Even today there is a backlash against GM putting "Chevy engines" in Cadillacs!

And they still didn't "need" to worry about a Buick engine in a Corvette when they had the more reliable Chevrolet V6 available.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

ProTouringASC · Post by **ProTouringASC** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:00 pm

shelbyscarab wrote:The 80's were the worst. Remember the Citation, J-2000, Skylark? (plus they were junk to begin with).

Not be nit picky, but I think you're thinking of the Cavalier, J-2000, Skyhawk.

Or maybe not... but the Citation was the X-body replacement, as was the Skylark, and the Omega. The J-2000 was a J-body, as was the Cavalier, Skyhawk, Firenza, and Cimarron.

None of these cars were exactly "junk," and I have seen many with several hundred thousand miles on them. I had a customer in the 80's with an X-11 Citation, and it seemed to be a good little car. Lots of room, and no real problems to speak of.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill

Post by **negusm** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:35 pm

I'm not so sure I agree that the foreign makers have "wiped the floor with them." GM, in all reality, is still the number one auto maker. Yes, Toyota claims the title, but they sell cars in Japan where a GM product is taxed to the point that a 30K car here is something like 100K there!

Foreign makers do have an unlevel playing field. However, I think the domestic problems are exacerbated by their old way of approaching car manufacturing.

Not if your customer's are the one's who would get upset about it. Remember it was GM who was sued for mixing engines among their divisions, and the courts ruled AGAINST Oldsmobile division!

Even today there is a backlash against GM putting "Chevy engines" in Cadillacs!

WHY are there "Chevy" engines, "Cadillac" engines, "Pontiac Engines" or whatever engines? This is ARCHAIC thinking. There should be "COMPANY" engines. A customer can't get pissed when the ONLY engines are "GM" engines. We put this GM engine in that Chevy or this GM engine in that Truck, etc etc. Now you can't say that a "Buick" engine was put in a "Chevy" car.

My 4Runner has the same engine as the v6 Camry. You never hear of owners bitching that a "car" engine was in the 4Runner. It's a "Toyota" engine that works well for either. And Toyota sold the tulips out of both cars! I bet the same engine can be found in the Lexus too! Where's the outrage?

-Mike

ProTouringASC · Post by **ProTouringASC** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:30 pm

negusm wrote:
WHY are there "Chevy" engines, "Cadillac" engines, "Pontiac Engines" or whatever engines? This is ARCHAIC thinking. There should be "COMPANY" engines. A customer can't get pissed when the ONLY engines are "GM" engines. We put this GM engine in that Chevy or this GM engine in that Truck, etc etc. Now you can't say that a "Buick" engine was put in a "Chevy" car.

My 4Runner has the same engine as the v6 Camry. You never hear of owners bitching that a "car" engine was in the 4Runner. It's a "Toyota" engine that works well for either. And Toyota sold the tulips out of both cars! I bet the same engine can be found in the Lexus too! Where's the outrage?

-Mike

Yes, but it's the consumer who sees the engines as "Chevy," GM calls them "corporate" engines. That's changing, but not as quickly as GM would like it to.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill